2020 Election

“QAnon Is Batshit Crazy”: Lindsey Graham Talks TikTok, Online Conspiracies, and Why He’s Sticking With Trump

The South Carolina senator, facing a tough reelection fight, recalls warning Trump not to shut down TikTok after getting calls from Hannity, Petraeus, and his niece: “You’re going to get kicked in the ass by a bunch of young people.”
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Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lindsey Graham before the start of a Senate Judiciary Committee business meeting to consider authorization for subpoenas relating to the Crossfire Hurricane investigation and other matters.By Erin Schaff-Pool/Getty Images. 

South Carolina senator Lindsey Graham went from one of Donald Trump’s loudest critics in 2016 to one of his staunchest allies on Capitol Hill. But even though Graham’s famous defense of Brett Kavanaugh boosted his standing among Republicans, his association with Trump is today proving to be a drag in his reelection campaign. Graham barely leads his well-funded Democratic challenger, Jaime Harrison, in the conservative state, and he’s conspicuously not speaking at this week’s Republican National Convention. But Graham found time to speak with Vanity Fair contributor Peter Hamby for his Snapchat show Good Luck America about everything from TikTok to QAnon to his transition from John McCain’s bestie to one of Trump’s favorite golfing buddies. What follows is a lightly-edited transcript of their conversation:

Vanity Fair: Hey, Senator. How you doing?

Lindsey Graham: I thought you were dead. 

I live in L.A. now. I just don’t come near Capitol Hill very much anymore.

I don’t blame you.

So, I have a few policy questions. You were essential, I think from what I’ve read, in brokering a deal to sell off U.S. operations of TikTok. Can you take us behind the curtain on that? I mean, Trump said that there was credible evidence that China was gathering intelligence on Americans via TikTok. Is that true?

Yeah. I mean, the Chinese Communist Party and business interests are one. You know, Snapchat doesn’t have to report to Trump, but the Chinese Communist Party pretty much owns every business enterprise and all the private data being collected by TikTok. It’s a Chinese-based company, you worry that the Chinese Communist Party will manipulate it. Now they’re trying to affect our elections. It’s not just Russia. It’s China. It’s a lot of people. So knowledge is power, right? You can probably attest to this. I may not be the most technological-savvy guy on the planet. Do you agree with that? 

You’re pretty good.

Well, okay. So here’s the deal. If TikTok is saved, you can thank me. So I get a call from Sean Hannity. His daughter’s crying. They’re going to do away with TikTok. I said, “Well, get her a new watch.” I don’t follow TikTok. Then my niece calls me, tells me they’re going to do away with TikTok. Let’s see, General [David] Petraeus calls me, says they’re going to do away with TikTok. So my niece, General Petraeus and Sean Hannity’s daughter, there must be something about TikTok. So I got smart real quick. [Treasury Secretary Steven] Mnuchin called me and said that Trump wants to basically shut down the platform, and you’ve got 100 million Americans who use it, mostly young people. And he said, when they told me it was that dancing-cat video site, you know where the cats dance, I’m all in. If it’s up to me, we’ll never shut down anything that good to show animals dancing, and all the other stuff you do on TikTok. So I called up Trump. I said, “Listen, the Chinese part is true. You’ve got to be worried about communist China owning this platform, having all this data. But if you shut down this site, you’re going to get kicked in the ass by a bunch of young people. Bad decision. Let Microsoft or somebody buy it, put it in American hands and allow the platform to survive and thrive because so many people enjoy it.” And he said, “Well, I’ll get back with you.” And apparently the middle ground is to give a chance for the sale to go forward to Microsoft or somebody. Now I think TikTok may be suing about the executive order. So I don’t know where we’re at.

What specifically should someone using TikTok just to upload a dance video or make a funny video about their dog, what should they be worried about from China?

Well, what you worry about on social media sites. You know, so I did the thing called the EARN IT Act. If you’re a parent or you’re a young person, there’s a lot of sexual predators out there on social media sites. You strike up conversations. And we’ve got to harden these sites against abuses. One of the abuses that I’m worried about is the social media sites being used by child predators, scam artists, and now the communist Chinese party, having your data. That’s not good. It’s not good to have a business enterprise penetrate America this much, owned by the Chinese communist party, because only God knows what they will do to your data. Sell it to terrorist groups for counterfeiting money. Knowledge is power, data is power. So your privacy matters to you, but your data should matter too. Because once they know who you are and all the information about you, they can monetize it, they can use it against you. You know when I was little, I used to go outside and play. There were three TV channels when I was born, I was born before cable, B.C. Young people today have tremendous opportunity, but a lot of pressure. A lot of social pressure, a lot of bullying on the internet. It’s a different world out there today. And I’m very worried.

On the topic of QAnon, This is a group that the FBI has classified as a domestic terror threat. They’ve been involved in kidnappings and killings. Do you think tech platforms in this country should monitor, track, and censor QAnon in the same way they do radical Islamic terrorist groups?

Can you say batshit crazy on your show?

You just did.

Well, QAnon is batshit crazy. Crazy stuff. Inspiring people to violence. I think it is a platform that plays off people’s fears, that compels them to do things they normally wouldn’t do. And it’s very much a threat. But there are a lot of websites out there. How do you live in this world? So under Section 230 of our law [the Communications Decency Act], a social media company can’t be sued for the content that they carry. I get slandered all the time on Twitter and other outlets. If the New York Times printed an article, I could sue them. If CNN said something about me that wasn’t true, I could sue them. But Twitter and all these other sites can pass on the most scandalous information, you have no recourse. So how to fix this? I would like to remove Section 230 liability. That if you’re going to have a social media site like QAnon or anything else, you spread this stuff at your own peril. So when this guy went into the pizza restaurant in Washington, because they alleged that Hillary Clinton was running a pedophile ring out of a pizza place in Washington. This guy took it seriously, went in with an AR-15 and started shooting up place. Thank God nobody got killed. But the pizza owner under my theory, could sue QAnon for passing along garbage. That’s a pretty dramatic step. But the only way I know to make people more responsible who run these websites is allow lawsuits when they go too far.

But if Donald Trump didn’t like something that, say, Don Lemon tweeted, couldn’t Trump then just sue Twitter, if you got rid of Section 230?

The point is that CNN is held to certain standards. You can’t libel or slander somebody. You can’t incite people. The First Amendment allows you to speak your mind, but it doesn’t allow to yell fire in a movie theater. So these websites that we’re talking about, hate-filled websites, some of the neo-Nazi websites, if somebody is hurt because of the actions these websites inspired, sue the hell out of them. Freedom of speech is one thing. Being able to attack each other’s ideas is part of America. But what’s the line? When you inspire people to commit acts of violence and turn on one another in a violent fashion, that’s not free speech, that’s criminality.

So, you and John McCain were and are longtime advocates for human rights all over the world. The idea of America as a beacon for freedom. Right now you have protests in Belarus, protests in Hong Kong, Putin’s opposition leader was poisoned. You have an estimated 1 million Uyghurs in Chinese prison camps. There are reports there of forced abortions, infanticide. But the president tweets more about Morning Joe than all things.

Well, he’s a cultural warrior. He gets attacked morning, noon, and night, and he only knows one speed and that’s to fight back. From the time he gets up to the time he goes to bed, it’s just one onslaught after another. And he kicks every barking dog, which is probably more than the market will bear. But I would say this about the efforts to destroy the status of Hong Kong. The president pushed back hard. We’ve passed bipartisan legislation to change the status of Hong Kong and to punish the Chinese Communist Party. We’ve done a lot of sanctions against China, officials involved in imprisoning the Uyghurs. At the end of the day, Trump has been really good on China. I think he’s done more to push back against China’s misdeeds than any president in my lifetime. Could he do more about talking about the basic rights of humanity? What I like about John McCain, wherever there was a lost cause he would go. We’re hitting Belarus hard, Secretary [Mike] Pompeo has been really good on that. Europeans haven’t done a damn thing. Europeans have been very weak when it comes to Hong Kong, they’re afraid of China. And I find it pretty stunning that the only people talking about the Uyghurs, mostly the United States. Because China has so much power in the international commerce arena. We’re sort of tied into their commodities businesses to the point that it’s almost intimidating. So could President Trump do more, but I think he’s done a good job of pushing back.

On the topic of McCain as well—and this might be one reason your race is probably closer than it should be, because Trump won South Carolina by 14 points last time—but I emailed my grandma who lives in Greenville, she’s 95. She’s never voted for a Democrat. She’s voted for you in every election, and she’s on the fence right now. And this is what she told me to ask you. “Peter, tell Lindsey that this S.C. lady from his home district voted for him for years, but she’s not sure this year because he’s a Trumper. Why did he change after McCain died? After the way Trump treated his friend McCain? I didn’t vote for Trump before and I won’t again, I despise Trump.” What do you say to her?

Okay, well, Trump won. I lost. He’s president. I want him to be successful. But let’s get back to McCain. Pretty tough contest in 2008, right? John got beat, his dream to be president of the United States, he fell short. And Barack Obama and Joe Biden were pretty hard on John McCain. There’s a lot of rewriting history here. John Lewis, he did a great job advancing civil rights, but he compared the McCain campaign to the George Wallace campaign. I’ve got a very good memory. Bottom line is, when it was over, John met with President-Elect Obama in Chicago, Rahm Emanuel, and myself and said, “What can I do to help?” On the night he lost, he gave a speech that said Obama is now my president. I made a conscious decision, after using every name I can think of to describe the Trump campaign, I didn’t vote for Trump like your grandmother. I voted for Evan McMullin, who I wouldn’t know if he walked in the door.

My grandmother voted for McMullin too.

Yeah. Okay. So that’s two of us. I don’t know who the third person was, but grandma and I made a conscious decision. He won. I lost. Now I can do one of two things. I can take my ball and go hide in the corner. Or I can represent my state. He won my state. He won my state by 14 points. I think I’d owe it to the people of South Carolina to help this president. I voted for [Justices Sonia] Sotomayor and [Elena] Kagan, grandma, because I thought they were qualified. And I worked with President Obama to do a comprehensive immigration reform. I was one of the Gang of Eight at my own peril. I want to do the same thing with Trump. He’s in my party. I want him to be successful. From my point of view, he’s appointed great conservative judges. [Neil] Gorsuch and Kavanaugh were terrific appointees. Kavanaugh got treated like crap. There’s a definite double standard. Trump wanted to pull out of Syria. He listened to me and he stayed. I’m in his orbit. I think he believes that I want him to be successful, and I do. And I am going to continue to work with him. I hope he gets reelected. I’m going to vote for him this time, but here’s what you can expect from me, grandma. If Biden wins, I’ll do the same thing with Joe that I did with Obama and Trump. I’ll try to help him where I can, but I think it’s important that when the election’s over, they should try to work with the president of either party, but particularly the president in your own party. 

People ask me, “What have you changed? Lindsey’s changed.” I’ve voted for Sotomayor and Kagan. I thought they were qualified. Look what they did to Kavanaugh. I haven’t changed. They’ve changed. I was in the Gang of Eight to pass comprehensive immigration reform to give the 11 million in pathway to citizenship. Now the Democrats want to decriminalize entry into the country and give free health care to illegal immigrants. I believe climate change is real. I’m in the climate-solutions caucus. The Green New Deal destroys the economy in the name of saving the environment. The Democratic Party has changed more than I have. And I unashamedly will help Trump.

Okay, but the Republican Party has changed too.

Yeah. Trump has changed the party. It’s more populist. He’s gotten the Reagan Democrat back. Working people feel like he’s on their side. He ran as a disruptor and he has been disruptive. I can understand your grandmother being upset by the behavior Donald Trump at times, and count me in. I’ve pushed back too. Charlottesville, you name it. But the bottom line is working people believe that the change he’s brought benefits them. He’s turned trade agreements upside down. He destroyed the caliphate. He killed [Iranian commander Qasem] Soleimani. He’s rebuilt the military as strong as any time since Ronald Reagan. He’s got the UAE and Israel doing peace. I never thought that would happen. So Mexico is now helping us with illegal immigration. The Triangle countries stop the caravan. I can go on and on and on. I think in his disruptive way, he’s brought about change that’s going to help people. African American and Latino families before the pandemic were doing better than any time in modern history. So I hope your grandmother would vote for me, but I don’t want to mislead her. I’m trying to help the president because I believe it’s my responsibility. I want him to be successful, and I’m generally pleased with what he’s done on foreign policy. So nobody asks Kamala Harris on the left, why did you do what you did? I expected Kamala Harris once she lost to want to help Joe Biden. That’s no surprise to me and you’re not going to hear me knocking her for wanting to help Joe because she fought the good fight and she lost. And now we continue.

But you called Trump a racist.

A xenophobic, race-baiting, religious bigot.

Is he not racist anymore?

He won the presidency. No, I don’t think he’s racist. Here’s what I think. You can be black as coal and if you like him, he likes you. You can be albino and if he doesn’t like you, he doesn’t like you. He’s about him. If you like him, he probably likes you. But I don’t think he hates people because of the color of their skin. I think he reacts to people as to how they react to him. I really believe that. But look what Kamala Harris said about Joe Biden. This is the way it is. John McCain fought hard, right. But John accepted his defeat. Remember this, John McCain, along with John Kerry, wanted to normalize relationships with Vietnam after being in prison. And I’ve always had this attitude that when the race is over and the votes are counted, we need to work together to the extent we can.

I mentioned earlier, Trump won your state by 14 points. It’s not even clear there’s enough Democrats to get your opponent, Jaime Harrison, over the hump down there. But why is the race there in South Carolina so close? It shouldn’t be. 

Well, you’re talking about a poll that was pretty flawed; 46% of the people who voted on Election Day in 2016 were self-identified Republicans. When John McCain ran, it was 41 or 42%. We’re always in the 40s, when it comes to voting day. The sample was 31. I don’t mean to bore people, but if you change the sample 15 points, you’ll get a different outcome. I poll a lot. I know exactly where I’m at. I think I’m going to win decisively, but my opponent’s going to raise $60 million. Good for Jaime. How did this happen? Nothing to do with Jaime Harrison. This race is all about me. Here’s what’s happened. I stood up for Kavanaugh and that pissed a lot of liberals off. I thought [Dr. Christine Blasey] Ford had something happened to her, but Brett Kavanaugh had nothing to do with it. And the accusations against Brett Kavanaugh were offensive. I’ve known the guy for 20 years. And the unpardonable sin is that I’ve chosen to try to help President Trump. I’ve defended him against attacks. I’ve worked with him to implement policy. That seems to be an unpardonable sin. The only good Republican is one who helps Democrats with their causes, and if you dare help your side, then you’re not really the guy you used to be. Nobody said anything but great things about me when I voted for Sotomayor and Kagan. What a wonderful nice guy Lindsey Graham was singing the merit of these two ladies! I’ve known Brett Kavanaugh for 20 years and they tried to destroy his life and I’m glad I got in the way of it. So this is a sort of a referendum on me being different in the eyes of the left then I was when Obama was president. I welcome the challenge.

I’m going to prove a couple things. That I’ve delivered for this state. That it’s the first time I’ve really had, Peter, in a long time, or anybody even thought about me having a race, right. It’s my chance to remind people that I have risen to the occasion for my party and for my country. I’ve been to Iraq and Afghanistan 57 times. I miss John McCain every day. Why do I go, so that what happens over there never comes here again. And I have the back of the people serving. And a lot of people who watch this podcast, or whatever you call it, are young. The Snapchat world is young. Most people fighting this war, they’re young. They’re your age. My job is to make sure they have what they need so they can grow old. And thousands of them are not going to grow old. Thousands of them are going to be maimed for life. That’s the price of freedom. As long as I’m in this job, I’m going to make sure that they have what they need to protect the rest of us. I take this job very seriously, but not myself.

You’ve said really nice things about Joe Biden in the past. Are you worried that Trump’s going to lose to him?

I’m worried that Joe’s party has changed. I still believe in comprehensive immigration reform. I still believe climate change is real. I still believe all the things I’ve always believed, but the party of Joe Biden, when he came into the Senate, it’s no longer the party of Joe Biden. Bernie Sanders and [Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez], I think, are the energy. I think health care for illegal immigrants and decriminalizing the border is a nightmare for us. I think losing your health care at a job site is going to diminish the quality of health care. I think Joe is riding a tiger. But let’s just say this about Joe, that man has experienced as much tragedy in life as anybody I think I personally know. He always gets back up. He’s one of the most decent people I’ve ever met. I have literally traveled the world with Joe Biden. He’s a talker. We got on an airplane at Andrews Air Force Base, going to monitor the Iraqi election. It was a 15-hour flight. I’m on the plane with Tom Daschle and Joe Biden. I said, “Joe, tell me a little bit about Delaware politics.” We land in Baghdad, and he says, “I’ll finish the story in the car.” [laughs] He’s a one-of-a-kind guy. He’s a good guy, but I am going to be with Trump because I think policy matters. I think the president has done a good job of rebuilding our economy. If you believe in conservative judges, he’s our best hope. I think his foreign policy has been strong and forceful. That’s where I will be for Trump without any animosity toward Joe.

When you’re with Trump on Thursday in D.C. when he accepts the nomination, are you going to give him any advice for how to right the ship with a couple of months left in the election?

Yeah. I talked to him Monday. I talked to him about three times. Nikki Haley and Tim Scott hit it out of the park. You know them well. Nikki Haley is Indian American, the first female governor [of South Carolina]. Tim Scott’s the only African American Republican [in the U.S. Senate]. They have incredible stories. They’re my friends. It shows our state in such a positive light. I told the president last night, you should worry about a pretty radical agenda coming out of Nancy Pelosi’s House, the Green New Deal, all that stuff, but you need to remind people what you did for them and what you’re going to do for them. Remind them the state of play when you came into the office, how the world was, how the economy was, what you’re going to do to get the virus behind us, and how it will be better going forward.” There is a case to be made for Donald Trump apart from being afraid of Joe Biden. I want to hear the case for Donald Trump. I understand the fear of the radical left, but it’s now time for us to hear from Donald Trump the case for his reelection, what he has done, and what he can do. I hope that’s what he will do Thursday with an optimistic tone.

Last thing I want to ask you is this. The University of Alabama has reported some 500 COVID cases. The Big 10 canceled all fall sports. But the SEC and the ACC are still going forward with college football, probably without crowds in the stadium, although South Carolina said they might put people in Williams-Brice Stadium at reduced capacity. Anyway, do you think Clemson and South Carolina, the ACC and SEC, should move forward with college football this year?

Yeah. I think the players are better off in a college-football environment than they would be roaming around at home or on campus. They’re in a bubble. They’re going to get medical attention like very few people in the country. From a player’s point of view, I think it’s going to be safely done. From the country’s point of view, we need to get back to normal as much as possible. The risks of playing college football, I think, are pretty small, given the bubble in which these players reside. We may not have fans, but we need to have something to look forward to. To the ACC and the SEC and the Big 12, I encourage you to play football, because America needs something to look forward to.

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